2014-08-09 [Sunrose]: *glomps Veltzeh* ^^

2014-08-09 [Veltzeh]: Eep! Glomppage!

2014-08-10 [nehirwen]: Officially you can't display photomanips in your house either, which is ridiculous.

2014-08-10 [wicked fae mage]: It was answered. I meant: somebody has a naked drawing up but no banner, should I tell a guard they need a banner? Or was it more of a way to keep members from being harassed by people who are not fans of nudity but not necessary to have one, just an option?

2014-08-10 [Sunrose]: It was more to warn people who might take offense to nudity. When the warning is put up people would stop reporting it. You can report it if you think it should have a warning :)

2014-08-10 [Ravendust]: Officially you can't display photomanips in your house either, which is ridiculous.

yeah, at second glance I think this one maybe should have a bit of a change. Photomanip is an artform, and I've done a few myself. :) so maybe.... can post photomanips with a link to the stock that they used?

2014-08-10 [nehirwen]: Not under the current rules:
Images from other sites are not allowed even if they are "free". Note that:
- Taking an image and editing it does not make it your own. This includes, but is not limited to, photomanipulations.

But yeah, I strongly disagree with that one. :p

2014-08-10 [Stephen]: Current rules are way too strict. >_>

2014-08-12 [Ravendust]: For example?

2014-08-12 [Stephen]: For example, the photomanip rule.
Or the "no screenshots from games ever" rule.
Or the "four lines of copied text total" rule (even if we're not enforcing that at the moment..)
Or the "things we deem annoying may be deleted without warning" clause.
The exact definition of what is and what is not a "random" image.
Celeb images are currently not allowed, even if you were at a concert and actually took the picture (you have to be in it.)
Art that you copied/traced isn't allowed (which makes sense, to a degree), but that's how most artists actually start working up their skills.

Also, there's no rules at all on what you can post on your diary, or in a public/private forum. Also you're not supposed to display copyrighted work on public pages, and by definition a public page is something that can be accessed via direct link from your house - which means a lot of wikis violate that (even if we never enforce it).

So, they're strict and unclear. x)

2014-08-12 [Flisky]: Those rules are questionable. (At least some of them.) I like the four lines of copied text rule just because it's really annoying to have every other house be completely copied text. And copying images...is questionable. People tend to trace or copy images without giving proper credit as to where that image came from and we're supposed to be artists/writers and should be able to at least give credit to the original artist because we understand that art theft is wrong.

2014-08-12 [windowframe]: There is no obligation to read someone's house. It's their page. Who cares if you don't like the content, or if you find it annoying? I find some people's houses hella annoying, but I'm not lobbying for rules to ban them. Literally no other site I use bans shit because some people "find it annoying". It is absurd and elitist and just even... what? o.<

Most of the time it's really frickin' hard to tell when someone has traced or copied an image. It makes more sense to allow it and just ask people to reference it than it does keeping a rule that's so hard to enforce.

2014-08-12 [Flisky]: It's more of a "I wrote this poem" people that bother me. The people who claim things or don't give credit to the original artists. That's more what I'm getting at.

2014-08-12 [ally]: The four lines rule doesn't cover those cases. The copyright rule does. We're keeping that one.

2014-08-12 [Flisky]: The four line rule kind of cuts down on the whole copying lyrics and not putting the original artist.

2014-08-12 [Flisky]: Iunno. I like it.

2014-08-12 [wicked fae mage]: If the annoying rule is expanded upon, keep it? Like I believe there are rules against animations being in your house, but not on a wiki page.

And the screen shot of video games rules...we should come up with criteria for it? I mean, sure. If you created a world in Minecraft that is all your own, or even if you recreated Middle Earth all by yourself, that is kind of cool.

Idk about "this is my WoW character" being in a house though. I think Blizz would have to go really out of their way to want to find people who do that and throw a hissy fit over it.

The argument of it being your character is cut short because you may have chose their face and hair color, but artists other than you drew and created all possible combinations. And with Minecraft, while the same thing was done, a world is more impressive than a character.

(I realize I may not be helping as much as I thought)

2014-08-12 [hanhepi]: I do believe "copyright" is the reason behind several rules. The text rule for example. I don't know why we decided that 4 lines was our magical number, but I remember a discussion about copyright and the number of lines we would allow, rule came right after that.
That rule really should not apply to works in the public domain though. Which I think is why we put in the clause about "annoying" shit... just so no one was copy-pasting all of Moby Dick to their description. 

Screencaps from games was also a copyright thing, 98% sure.

Wikis and diaries have rules that are more lax. I don't remember the exact reasoning there, but I strongly oppose tightening those rules. 

2014-08-12 [windowframe]: I just... don't get this desire to police what other people can have in their house, just because you find some of it annoying. It's their house! Don't like it, don't look at it, don't read it. It's not like your obliged to read in full everyone's house or you get banned.

I think the animation annoyance rule initially had more to do with some people still being on broadband, and then going to someone's house that has animation on it slowed everything right the fuck down. How much of an issue is that any more? (and if it IS still an issue, that is how the rule should be phrased - not as if it's all about the personal preference of some clique.

As for wow characters: I know lots and lots of people who properly RP their wow characters. There's just as much thought and effort gone into that character as there is for a text-based RP on ET. But they're not allowed to show you a picture of their character, because they didn't draw it... because they're a writer, not an artist. And I don't think Blizzard would throw a hissy fit over it anyway. Just look at all the gaming news sites, blogs etc. that have screen caps from games. No one gives a shit. They only care if you're claiming it's yours (and even then, they probably won't care about some small fry with an ego) or if you're copying it to make your own game. And again, even then, most of them will care more about whether you're copying game dynamics than graphics.

I strongly oppose tightening any rule, anywhere. All bar theft need to be relaxed. X_x

2014-08-12 [Sunrose]: Loading time of houses with animations: this is also partly why there's an image limit on descriptions I think.

2014-08-12 [ally]: Blizzard only cares about its copyright if it loses moneys when it's infringed.

2014-08-12 [ally]: Loading time is still an issue when you're using tablets/phones.

2014-08-12 [Sunrose]: ET as a whole is a problem when using a phone. I didn't try the tablet. Anyway, this is off topic :P

2014-08-12 [Flisky]: ET loads okay on my phone, but it dies when I'm trying to edit anything. That's one of the reason I had to stop being a regular council person.

2014-08-13 [Skydancer]: My own opinion on a Photomanipulation. IF, all elements in the work are either the property of the one uploading the image, and / or, they are using elements which they have express permission to use from the copyright holder of those elements, such as stock photos, then it seems it would be certainly a natural form of work to be allowed. If however that is not the case, and there are any elements that are not in line with proper permission, content, ownership and / or proper credits to the elements included, then no, they should not be allowed.

2014-08-13 [Skydancer]: Game images which are copyright to a company in the degree that it is not fan art, but is a direct screen capture, or a screen capture has been included as part of a manipulated work, is in my opinion, something that should not be allowed. However, if the work is a creation of the individual in a virtual world, such as Second Life, then it is not a "game" as such, but rather is persistent world in which the content is user created, not preprogrammed and designed for hire by a gaming company. That should be allowed, as long as, credits for elements in the image which do not belong to the user, are included, and the primary elements are created by the person uploading the image.

2014-08-13 [Skydancer]: That being said. There are, in virtual worlds, situations where there are virtual photographers, fashion, landscapes, entertainment venues and pretty much anything you could find in real life, and virtual photography is a recognized art form in the virtual worlds. So, in theory at least, I believe it is technically the copyright of the person taking the virtual photograph, though, I do not believe the issue of the release of an avatars image by the user of that avatar has ever been discussed. I would not however be at all surprised if it had, I just have not heard of it happening yet.

2014-08-13 [Skydancer]: Presumably, some of what I said makes some kind of sense in some kind of context.

2014-08-13 [Sunrose]: So basically you can display it if you make proper credits and are free to use or at least used with permission?
The permission thing might be hard to enforce.

2014-08-13 [Mortified Penguin]: The only rule should be "don't be an asshole". But, of course, any rule changes should be run by and approved by [Hedda] first, otherwise I won't be considering them valid.

2014-08-13 [Sunrose]: Define asshole..I think you fit that bill at times :P

2014-08-13 [Stephen]: *snort*

The biggest issue with anything that we add a clause of "You can use provided you have the correct permissions" is that it's very difficult to enforce that as Sunny said, and even if we do we'd have to do a lot of legwork to make sure it's actually being done correctly.

2014-08-13 [Mortified Penguin]: Anyone who isn't me. So no, I seldom fit that bill!

2014-08-13 [Skydancer]: That is generally the way things are done in Deviant art, as long as you either own, or have the permission of the original stock providers which you use in the piece, and have followed the rules of the stock providers, since some have more restrictive rules than others, yes, you should be able to upload work that you have down as a photo manipulation. It does get a bit complicated with many different sets of rules by the stock providers but many of us that have a lot of stock have set up our rules to be pretty much similar. One of the big issues we run into are those people that rip images from sources they do not have the right to use and then submit that as stock. That can get sticky.

2014-08-13 [Skydancer]: And yes, I am fully aware of the issues of having a way to check that they have such permissions. A system has evolved on DA that helps a bit in that you are notified when one of your works is used or mentioned. And we as a community watch out for each other a lot. The DA staff as such does not enforce the rules, unless they are contacted with a complaint against a piece or an artist, then they will remove that image if they find that it contains material not allowed or they do not have the permissions to upload such in the first place.

2014-08-14 [Stephen]: It sounds like a good system, but I don't really know how we would carry something like that out on Elftown.

2014-08-14 [Yncke]: Perhaps drop the "Try to write in correct English with proper words, capitalization and grammar. No netspeak, because this is a presentation, not a chat-message! " sentence from the register page? It sounds unfriendly and even aggressive.

(Do applications still have to be approved before you gain entrance to Elftown?)

2014-08-14 [Figgy]: Unfortunately, I think a lot of Elftown's rules and statements can sound unfriendly, snarky, and aggressive :/

The "Don't be an asshole" rule is a GREAT example.
To us oldies, it's not so bad, since we've known this rule for 10+ years. But to a newcomer, I could see it sounding... assholeish. >_>

That is my opinion, of course. I bet a majority of the rules could be rewritten to at least sound more professional and friendly.

2014-08-14 [Yncke]: "Don't be an asshole" feels like a no nonsense rule, in my opinion, it has its charm. But that red text, I'm not sure if I'd be inclined to subscribe to Elftown, today, with that above the application form.

2014-08-14 [Mortified Penguin]: A lot of the things you consider unfriendly sounding and aggressive are part of what made me like Elftown in the first place. It made it seem more down to earth than other sites and not so stuck up and obsessed with formality. [Hedda]'s informal way of wording things made me feel more free to speak my mind and act like myself when I joined Elftown, which in turn made me want to stick around and come here more often.

2014-08-14 [Stephen]:
[Yncke]: Yes, applications do still need approval, although we are more lax in what we do approve than we use to be.

[Figgy]: The "don't be an asshole" rule was modified on other sites to sound a bit less... aggressive in title and it hasn't really seemed to have made an impact. Although I haven't seen the application page in a while, that may be something to check into..

Mort: We're trying to do a balance between what we are, and what we'd need to be in order to continue being a functioning site. Elftown is currently more "alive" than it has been in some time and it's really not that alive tbh. Though most of us senior members like the system, it's not working to ensure members join to replace the ones who stop being active.
We don't want the site to die.

2014-08-14 [Figgy]: I suppose I'm simply always for rewriting and updating things. There's always room for improvement. :)

2014-08-15 [Mortified Penguin]: This is the time of year people briefly become more active. Elftown generally follows the same trends as B's D.

2014-08-15 [Stephen]: July seemed pretty slow this year. :P

Let's keep up the activity. x3

2014-08-27 [Sagacious Turkey]: What is an asshole? (visual approximation: * )

There you go, I helped solve one of Elftown's oldest mysteries.

What do you mean that's not what this is all about?!

2014-08-27 [Sagacious Turkey]: Ha ha, oh, I see now. This is a discussion about how much Elftown rules. Sorry, I can't believe I didn't read this more thoroughly!

Yeah! Elftown RULES!

2014-09-19 [pegasus1000]: I have always enjoyed the rules and how the crew would like elftown run. I would not make many changes but I do have a few suggestions.

Most of the rules pertain to what is and is not allowed in your house.

It would be nice to have a better break down of the rules
General Rules area to specify what is NEVER allowed on elftown as well as things that are expected everywhere on elftown.
Home Rules (and perhaps tell us why these rules are important)
Wiki Rules

G-2. Images in your house must be made by you or for you.

I think that this section can be confusing especially when it comes to fan art. You open yourself up to impatient people who don't want to read to the very bottom of the page. So you get a lot of “Would it be allowed for me to draw a pokemon and display it in my home? Do I need to say its reference? Would it be considered copied?” an so on.

Perhaps if this were at the top of the Copying vs fanart & referencing page as well as on the Rules page.

Copied art: Not allowed unless the original creator is well credited (and not allowed in official Competitions at all).
Referenced art: Allowed and it's welcome to credit the references, though not a must (unless the stock creators have asked to get credited, in that case it is a must).
Fanart: Allowed and it's welcome to credit the references, though it's not a must (unless the stock creators have asked to get credited, in that case it is a must).
Inspired art: Allowed, no crediting required, since you didn't use any reference (or at least you didn't use it very close).
Own art: Allowed.

Rule S-9. ASCII images are not allowed in your house. (ASCII art) is a bit excessive. I understand that they are really annoying but some people like these things and should be up to the home owner to say “I am annoying so look at this ASCII image”

2014-09-30 [Stephen]: [pegasus1000] - those are some very valid points.

Thanks! We'll make sure to take those into consideration.

(Sorry for the delay.)

2014-10-09 [~Valkyrie~]: I would like to point out that it's just as difficult to prove that an image was created by or for the person displaying it as it is to prove that they have permission to display it. It just seems to me to be one of those arbitrary lines that we draw. I mean, this is an artists' site, so you can't say that people can't display their own art, because there is no telling if it's really theirs. But to me, that makes it hard to say that they can't display an image for that very reason.

2015-10-06 [Lothuriel]: I've been away tooo long! 

2015-10-07 [Mortified Penguin]: Me too!

2015-10-11 [Sagacious Turkey]: How about we do the logical thing and get rid of all rules until Elftown recovers at least enough to warrant the existence of rules?

2015-11-16 [Stephen]: I'm not sure how logical that would be. =P

If you do have ideas on how to help out Elftown - that also happen to be within the abilities of the priv-system, feel free to shoot ideas at us, though.

2015-11-18 [~Valkyrie~]: One idea for helping out the site is letting new users in. I have a friend who set up a profile months ago and never got an email and cannot log on. I've messaged a couple council members who have been suggested to me and no one has gotten back to me about helping him.

2015-11-19 [Mortified Penguin]: You could just send them invite links, such as:

http://elftown.eu/i.html?code=mrFV7Pdj
http://elftown.eu/i.html?code=CX8GB28A
http://elftown.eu/i.html?code=2sKy4CCc
http://elftown.eu/i.html?code=cnZWzHD4
http://elftown.eu/i.html?code=XqSqvriX
http://elftown.eu/i.html?code=ZxX4Gewb

^{_{(see Invitations Guide for more information)}}